|Paul Pollard Deposition July 24, 1989|
| Attorney Popkin asked
Pollard where he
presently lived and Attorney
Glazier, said, “We’re not going to answer that question. We’re not
going to give you any information about where he lives or where he works
or other information that can be used to try to get to Mr. Pollard.
Since this incident in 1981, he’s been constantly harassed by your
client and by others, and we’re not going to give you any information
other than what may be extremely relevant to avoid this type of
harassment to my client.
Popkin then asked where he went to college in 1982 (seven years earlier), he got the same response from Mr. Glazier. Mr. Popkin said he didn’t know how telling where he was back in 1982 would lead to harassment, but Glazier insisted that they weren’t going to give that information.
"Do you know who killed Micheal Cochran. 9
"Most recently, when were you asked questions about that?" 10
"I do remember Sgt. Shuman of the state police and another time with two Maine State Police officers who submitted me to a lie detector test." 11
"Where did the lie detector test take place?" 11
Again, Attorney Glazier said, "We’re not going to give you that information."
Popkin said, "And you’re just instructing him not to answer?"
Glazier said, "Right."
"Basically, what led up to it? What’s your recollection of how that came about?" 12 " I was contacted by the Maine State Police and they simply requested that I submit to another lie detector test. I don't remember why, but I agreed, after the lie detector test I didn't hear any more."
"When you said that you were contacted by the Maine State Police, how did they contact you?" 12
"I don’t remember."
"You don’t remember whether it was a phone call or whether they came to see you?" 13
"I can’t remember for certain."
"Okay, do you have any kind of recollection whatsoever, any sort of hazy recall of how this came about?"
"Prior to the lie detector test, I had been called on several occasions [twice] by Mrs. Cochran and the state police had based the need for the lie detector test on information she had given them." 13
"And do you believe that this was a phone call, or was there a person-to-person interview when this request was made?" 13
"I can’t remember."
"Did they ask you about Lionel’s involvement or possible involvement in the Cochran homicide?"14
"In a general way, yes."
"Well, is there anything else that you remember less clearly but still remember enough to say that this was inquired about?" 15
"Not specifically. Generally, I do recall several questions asked about Lionel’s involvement in the death of Micheal Cochran and the fire." 15-16
"Anyone else they were interested in?" 16
"I don’t remember."
"Do you believe that Lionel Cormier was involved in Mr. Cochran’s death?” 16
"I don’t know."
"Are you telling me today that you have no belief whatsoever as to whether Lionel was involved in Cochran’s death?”
"I don’t know."
"You don’t know whether you don’t have a belief or you don’t know if he was involved?"
"I don’t know if he was involved." 16
"Do you think Lionel was involved?" 17
"I don’t know."
"Do you have any belief whatsoever of your own about what probably happened there?" 18
"I have no guess about what happened."
"Do you really just have no idea in the world about what took place that night? "None other than what I remember."
"Do you remember a call that you've characterized as a harassing phone call from my client, Mrs. Cochran?" 19-
"I remember several calls."
"Okay. Do you remember telling her that you believed that Lionel Cormier was someone that the police ought to take a look at in this case?" 19-20
"I don’t recall those specific words, but I do remember a conversation to that effect." 19-20
"Why did you say that?"
"I said that in an effort to get Mrs. Cochran to stop calling." 20
"Has Lionel’s involvement in this ever been discussed between you and your father?" 20
"We’ve discussed Lionel as being part of the events that took place, but I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at."
"What have you discussed in regard to what you just told me Lionel is part of the events that took place? This discussion with your father."
"We talked about how Lionel knew the various people involved in the events, where he was, those types of things." 21
"What do you mean by those types of things?"
"As much as I could remember about the events, about those times that Lionel was present." 21
"We asked you to bring some documents here with you today, and I'd like a rundown what you have and have not brought. Do you have any materials which relate to the death of Micheal Cochran, any police reports or just other things that may in some way be documents which are connected with this case?"
"Have you ever been an informant for the Maine State Police?"
"What do you mean?'
"Tell me when you first started to have any kind of relationship with the Maine State Police other than that as just a member of the general public. ... When's the first time that you remember having to deal with the state police for more than just a traffic ticket?"
“The first time would have been when I was jailed for a minor offense of shooting a firearm, and it was at that point that I was questioned about the fire.” 23
"[W]ere you questioned at that time several times or just once on the first occasion?"
"It was several times."
"And who was it you met with." 24
"I remember two officers, but there may have been others, but the single person I remember the clearest is Barry Shuman." 24
"In that period were you interviewed by members of the state police or representatives of the District Attorney's Office in the period between when you were in jail and the time the charges for reckless conduct with a firearm were dismissed.?" 25
"Do you remember what they asked you [at the first polygraph test]?"
"The questions at the first polygraph test were similar. I was asked direct questions about the fire and about the death of Micheal Cochran."
"Anything more you can tell me about what specifically you were asked?"
"I don’t recall."
"...in the most general sense just tell me quickly about that forgery offense." 30
"Just generally it was cashing a bad check." 30
"... Was this, wasn't it, in the same general time period as the arrest on the reckless conduct charge, the fire in Lucerne?" 32
"The court date had been set. It was just chance that it happened in the midst of those other events." 32
"Well, were you arrested on a bench warrant - -or you were arrested for something that had to do with the forgery charge, weren't you?" 33
"Do your remember being arrested on some occasion before the reckless conduct charge, or before you were arrested on the reckless conduct charge?"
"No, I don't remember." 35
"And you don't remember being arrested by the Bangor Police Department on February 24, 1981, on a bench warrant for forgery for the Waterville, Maine, Police Department?"
"(Shakes his head.) 35
Glazier: "Are you saying that he was arrested by the Bangor Police Department?"
"I'm saying he was arrested on February 24th, 1981, as per this report, and I'm asking if he recalls that arrest."
"... Let me just talk to him for a second." 35
Popkin: "Well --"
Glazier: "I want to talk to him, and I'm going to talk to him."
When Glazier and Pollard returned to the deposition room, Pollard’s memory had improved. He said, “I recall going to the Bangor Police Department to retrieve a rental car [red Pinto.] I don’t remember exactly what happened, but I do remember having to pay a bail. I don't remember being placed in a cell. That is all I can remember." 36
"Do you think you may have been questioned about the Micheal Cochran death and the fire in Lucerne on that date, on the 24th of February?" 36
"Not that I remember." 37
Popkin: "For the record, Mr. Glazier, do you agree that Pollard No. 2 is a copy of the docket sheet for the reckless conduct charge?"
Glazier: "I certainly do." 37
"Paul: "Is it your testimony that you never discussed the Lucerne fire and Micheal Cochran's death with police officers generally before March 3rd, 1981?" 38
"And if I was to tell you that your plea in the forgery case was entered just about the exact day, March 2nd or 3rd, that you were arrested on the reckless conduct case, would that be inconsistent with you recollection?"
"No, that would be correct."
; "Do you have any idea how you managed to appear and enter a plea down in Waterville while you were in jail up in Penobscot County?"
"I appeared in court in Waterville that morning [March 3, 1981]. The Maine State Police were there when I arrived and subsequently transported me to Bangor.”
"The Maine State Police were at the Waterville District Court?" 38
"Who was there?"
"I remember Barry Shuman being there."
"So you showed up in Waterville District Court, and do you remember what the police officer said to you or whether there was any discussion at all as to why they were there?"
"After the proceeding in Waterville, “I was taken to a side room where the Maine State Police came in and spoke to me about the reckless conduct with a firearm charge." 39
"Did they speak to you about the fire in Lucerne at that time."
"I don't believe so."
"How did they become aware, to your knowledge, that you had been at the camp in Lucerne?"
"I can't remember." 39
"Do you believe you were arrested at that time?"
"You were taken back then in a police cruiser to Bangor?"
"When do you first remember discussing the fire in Lucerne with the police?"
"Upon my arrival at the jail." 41
"And then [Lionel] got you involved in the Dolan robbery?' 51
“How well do you remember the fire [the murder]?”
"I remember most of it."
"I remember looking at the front of the camp and seeing the entire front in flames. Inside when I was crawling along the floor I could look down the hallway and see flames. When I crawled out the back, I walked around the house and looked. 63
"When you departed the scene of the fire, did you see anyone else around in the woods that night?” 63
“You saw the fire trucks arrive?"
“I remember hearing the trucks. I don’t recall if I saw them.” 63
"And you went through the woods, and then did you have to turn at some point?" 64
"I went through the woods. I passed another cabin. I came to a stone wall. I went across the highway and up into the woods, which was uphill, I believe. It was the highway that the fire department’s on.” 64
"About how long did you stay up there?"
"Did you see Lionel at the camp?"
"Describe Micheal Cochran for me, would you, please."
“Thin, Dark hair, Very quiet, Played -- he had a stereo there and was playing Van Halen just as loud as it would go. That’s about it.” 65 - 66
"Was that the first time you had met Micheal Cochran?'
"To the best of your ability, draw for me, with the understanding that neither of us is a draftsman, a rough sketch of the floor plan of the camp.” 67
"“Paul, how did you come to bring a .357 pistol to that camp?” 68
“Lionel felt that I should have it with me for my own protection.”
"You're afraid as you testify here today, aren't you?"
Glazier: Objection! What kind of question is that?" 68
"I am not afraid."
"You're not afraid of Mrs. Cochran?"
"It's just her harassment that sort of seems to bother you, what you characterized as harassment."
"You're not afraid of Lionel?"
" I may be somewhat afraid of Lionel."
"When you brought the 357 to the camp, did you keep it on you, where did you keep it when it was at the camp? 72
"It was with my personal things."
"What were the sleeping arrangements at the camp while you were there.”
"Micheal Cochran was sleeping in the loft."
"Where was Percy sleeping?"
"I don't remember."
"Were both Micheal and Percy there each of the nights or every night you stayed there?"
"I only remember one single night there. That was the night of the fire."76
"...What were your sleeping arrangements?'
"I was in the back bedroom sleeping on a lawn chair.” 76
"Anything else about the contents of that camp that you can tell me furniture wise?"
"There was a couch in the living room. ... Near the stairway going up to the loft."
"What was the weather like that night of the fire?”
" I think there was snow and ice on the ground, and I have no idea what the temperature was. Not enough to be a problem walking, but I do remember snow and ice on the ground.” 78
"What did you do with your time the day you spent there?"
"Do you ever recall having any conversation with Michael Cochran at all?”
“What’s your height now?”
“I’m five three.” 78
"When you went and got those two handguns for Lionel, you say that he had you register them in your name"
"That's right." 79
"And there was one for each of you?"
“Did you see any gasoline cans around the camp during the day or two, or however long it was, before the fire?” 81
“I don’t remember.”
“Did you ever go in and out of the back door before the fire?” 81
“How high above the ground was it?”
“A significant drop, three or four feet.” 82
“Now, it was your testimony that you got out of the camp and then got back in during the course of this fire?” 82
“Did you have any trouble with that drop?”
“I can’t remember. I managed to get back in.” 82
“Is it your testimony that there was only one bedroom in the camp as you recall it?" 83
“I can’t recall what this other space was, but what I was staying in was in fact a bedroom.” 83
“It was your car that was being driven at the time of the reckless conduct events that led to that charge, wasn’t it?”
“What had you gathered that Percy was doing when he left the camp that evening.” 85
“That he was going to make the transaction they had discussed earlier that day?" 86
“You said in Deposition Exhibit No. 3 that at some point that day Linda and Michael returned to the camp. I guess it’s starting with on Tuesday evening, February 17th. Let me ask you about that paragraph a little bit. It says there that on Tuesday evening, February 17th, 1981 Pollard advised that he and Percy were alone and they had left the camp. Does that mean there was a time when you and Percy left the camp?”
“I don’t know what that means.” 86
“Do you remember a time when you and Percy left the camp.”
“No, I don’t.” (86)
“Tell me as much as you can recall about the events of that evening as you sit here today.” 88
“The best that I recall now is being asleep and waking up and hearing some noise that woke me up, getting up and realizing there was a thick cloud of smoke. It was so thick that it took my breath away, and I went back down onto the floor and crawled out and opened up the back door and went out.”
“Were you reaching up lying on the ground or did you stand or…”
“I don’t remember if I stood up or not.” 88
“And what were your clothes actually? What clothes was it when you finally got dressed that you put on?”
“Jeans and a T-shirt. I remember having a very nice coat that I couldn’t locate. I remember trying hard to find that. I couldn’t find it.” 89
“What did you have with you for outer clothing besides the coat?”
“I can’t remember.”
“And where was the gun?” 90
“It was with my clothes.”
“And were your clothes in the duffel bag?
“Most of them under the lawn chair but the rest being scattered.”
“The things that were under the lawn chair, were they in a duffel bag or were they piled or jus what?”
“I don’t think they were in any order, just dropped.” 90
“What was the state of your clothing as you crawled to the door? Were you dressed or not?” 91
“I don’t think so. I remember being outside with no shoes on, but I don’t remember if I had any other clothing on the first tine I went out.
"And then you testified that you went around front and saw the front engulfed in flames."
"And then what happened?"
"I knew I needed to get something to put on. I crawled back inside and felt around until I had located a few things and then hurried out of the house.” 91
“And what did you take with you when you went?”
"I made an attempt to get my boots, but I only remember getting one. I don’t think I got any other, I know I got my pants and maybe a shirt and possibly some socks.”
“Now, could you feel the heat, or was it still mostly smoke that you were dealing with?”
“I don’t recall, but I do remember the smoke being very heavy and taking my breath away.”
“Were you burned in this fire?”
“Did you see anything that gives you an idea of what caused the fire?”
“Do you have any idea of what caused that fire?”
“There was a large fireplace and Percy and Michael Cochran both kept it roaring, and my first thought was that that may have caused it.” 92
“When you got out the second time, what exactly did you do?”
“Got dressed. I remember starting to walk away, and I do remember hearing the sirens and I had that one foot with no shoe, and I think I got some socks and covered up that one foot.” 92
“What can you tell me about the sirens? 94
“I remember hearing the sirens and leaving the camp at about the same time.”
“Now, this noise that woke you up … what do you remember about the noise?”
“The best that I remember is that it was a bang as though the rafters were falling in.” 95
“So you heard a crashing noise or a loud bang?”
“Now, when you say bang as though the rafters were falling in, can you distinguish that from the bang of a gunshot, a dull impact, or …” 95
”Right, as though lumber were hitting lumber.”
“When did you first learn that Michael Cochran had not gotten out of that fire?” 95 “I can’t remember exactly. I think the first people to suggest that is Lionel and the Sargent’s.” 95
“Now, you saw Lionel and the Sargent’s down in Winterport at Percy and Dick Sargent’s mother’s place the very next [same] day, didn’t you?”
“I remember going there with Lionel. I remember Dick Sargent being there and several other people.” 95
“But not Percy obviously, he was in jail, right?
Glazier: “Let him finish his answer.”
“I remember being especially frightened and panicky. I hadn’t had sleep in a long time, and I remember not wanting to be there. I don’t remember a lot of what was discussed other than they were asking me if Micheal Cochran was there or not, and I had no idea.” 96
“They were asking you about that at that point?”
“They were making the suggestion that he was still there.”
“So, as far as you’re concerned, you may have learned that morning from them that Micheal Cochran was still in that camp?” 96
“They had made that suggestion, but I’m not certain that I believed it.”
“When is it that you first remember actually learning with someone stating with some certainty that Micheal Cochran had not gotten out of that fire?” 96
“I can’t remember.”
“You’ve described at least somewhere, and I’m not sure that I’ve shown it to you yet, but a trip down to Rhode Island in which you stopped at Lewiston at Dick Sargent’s hotel he was living with Heidi Chabot and that there was some conversation then about whether Micheal Cochran had died that night. Do you recall that?” 97
“I remember stopping there.”
“Do you remember talking about this on that occasion?”
“No, I don’t.”
"So we could say that the time that you do remember whether Micheal Cochran had gotten out of the fire, it being discussed, that you positively remember it being discussed, was at Francis Sargent's house in Winterport the morning after [of] the fire." 97`
"Yes, that sounds right."
“Where was the telephone in the camp?”
“In the living room.” 97
“At the Sargent's when whether Mike Cochran had gotten out was being discussed, you said you didn't believe he was still in the camp at that time. ... What was being suggested about the fire? You said there was some speculation that morning. What was being said?” 98
“I don’t recall the conversation.”
“Do you recall whether there was any speculation about any rip-offs or sour drug deals being involved?” 99
"I believe there was the suggestion that the fire was in some way connected with Percy’s arrest that evening.” 99
“What can you tell me about that suggestion being made?”
“That’s all I remember, just very generally that it was brought up."
“When did you learn that Percy had been arrested?”
“The Sargent's in Winterport had told Lionel.”
“Did you learn this from Lionel?”
“I’m not sure exactly when.”
“Now, to resume what happened that night in the fire, you drew me your path and you described a little earlier than that the path that you took. When you went down and over the stonewall across the highway, did you stop any where along the way?”
"Yes. ... I stopped briefly at the stonewall. He said he remembered hearing footsteps, and crouched down behind the wall until he heard the footsteps go away, then he continued to pass the wall, cross the highway and up the hill. 99
“Was it your belief that you were being followed or that there was someone else in the woods?”
“I’m not sure.” 100
"Was the stonewall was closer to the highway than it was to the camp. 101
"It was still very dark. They weren’t next to each other, but they were not far apart. I don't think I could position myself until I got to the highway, crossed the highway and went up into the woods and sat on a rock for several hours that was up above the snow, for several hours. I walked parallel to the highway in the direction of Bangor until I came to a house that Lionel had identified as belonging to a person named Mark Ashe. I went to the front door of the house and knocked but there was no answer. It looked as as though no one was home. I continued up the road. I remember passing the fire station, coming to a house where there was an older man in the driveway, and I asked to use the telephone. I made one phone call to Lionel and asked him to come out and get him." 102
"What did you talk about with Lionel?”
“I think I told him the camp had burned down and that I needed him to come and pick me up.”
“Was he surprised?”
“It’s difficult to remember.” 102
“If you believed that Micheal Cochran just may have built up a big fire in the fireplace that got out of control, why did you run?” 103
“I just panicked. I was afraid. I’m not really sure what was going through my mind, but I do remember being very afraid.”
“You went to the police station several days later to pick up the rental car Percy had used. Was it your idea to go to the police station that day?”
“I think it may have been at Lionel’s insistence.”
“You were afraid down at the Sargent residence down at Winterport that morning?”
“And you were afraid in the woods. Did you think that somebody had tried to kill you?”
“I don’t think I ruled that out as a possibility.” 103
“Did you think that Lionel might have tried to kill you?" 104
“Who did you think might have?”
“I don’t know.”
“Why did you run? Why didn’t you just, when the fire truck arrived, say there’s a fire here?”
“That’s been asked and answered. He said he panicked,” Mr. Glazier said very harshly. 104
Popkin persisted saying to Pollard, “Can you, tell me any more about that?
“Just that I panicked. I was very afraid.”
"At what point did you begin to suspect that Micheal Cochran might not have gotten out of the fire.
"I didn't think I thought that until the suggestion was made later that day. "
"At that point why didn’t tell somebody that, hey, there maybe someone who was burned or killed in that fire. "
"Because I wasn’t certain that that was true.
"In fact, you fled the state, didn’t you, after this fire?’
Glazier said he objected to the phraseology of the question. 104
“Did you leave the state?”
“Were you afraid for your life, or were you afraid of getting caught for something?” “At that time I was afraid that I would take the rap for something that I didn’t do.”
“Are you saying that at that point you believed that there was a rap to take?”
"At that point I did believe that something had happened."
"Where did the switch come? Where from speculation to belief that there was a rap to take came from.
"I am not clear whether it was something someone said or if it was something that appeared in the paper. But one of those things convinced he was in the fire.
“So sometime before you went to Rhode Island you became convinced that Micheal Cochran had died in the fire.”
“When you became aware that Michael Cochran had died in the fire and decided to go to Rhode Island, what kind of discussions did you have with Lionel about that, about whether or not you should leave the state?”
“I don’t recall any discussions with Lionel.” 106
“Did you hear anything in that fie that you would consider, today looking back on it, was a gunshot?”
“No, I don’t think so.” 106
"The statement that I've been showing you, Pollard No. 3, that is a statement that you gave to Det. Shuman in early March of 1981. "
Glazier: “Well, is that what it is?"
" Yeah, that’s what it is."
Glazier: "A transcription by Shuman of what he said Pollard said?"
"Do you recall giving Shuman that statement?"
"I do recall talking to Mr. Shuman on several occasions." 107
“Now, at some time, almost within a day of the fire, you spoke to a deputy sheriff of Penobscot County, didn’t you, about the reckless conduct charge?"
“I remember talking to a police officer.”
“Tell me what you recall about the circumstances of how that interview came about.” 107
“He came to the house in East Corinth. For some reason I was alone there, and he walked in, asked if that was my car. I said yes. He asked about firing shots, and I said yes, that I had done it. He wrote it all down and left.” 108
“Now, had there been some state troopers at the house looking for you earlier in that day?”
“I don’t know.”
Popkin asked for Exhibit No. 5 to be marked. Let me show you and your attorney what's been marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you if you if you recognize that."
“I don’t remember specifically seeing these.” 108
"And was that your signature on it?"
“... Here on my brother page 2, the last sentence where it say my brother fired no shots, you gave this statement on the 19th of February 1981, is that what it says?” (108)
“That’s what it says.”
"How long after the fire that was?"
“I believe that was the next day.” 1
“What shots were you referring to when you said my brother fired no shots?"
"The shots that my brother fired."
"And which shots had your brother fired?"
"Glazier: "What are you talking about, his statement."
"Which shots are you talking about that your brother didn't fire?"
“I don’t recall firing any shots that night.”
“The night that’s discussed here.”
“The night Micheal Cochran died?”
Glazier: “No, the night that he’s talking about in the statement, Mr. Popkin. That’s the statement you gave him about the shooting of the sign.” 109
At this point the situation kind of lost control with Mr. Popkin and Mr. Glazier arguing.
Popkin: “And that’s what I am asking him - -“
Glazier: “That isn’t what you’re asking”.
“That’s what I am asking. One day after the fire you gave this statement, and I want to know –“
Glazier: “This statement was given about what?”
Popkin: “That’s what I’m asking him, Marvin, is what was it about.”
Glazier turns to Pollard and says, “do you now why this officer, Glen Ross, came to see you?”
Popkin: “Let me ask the questions.”
Glazier: “Then ask the questions properly without trying to put words in his mouth.”
Popkin: “I’m trying to ask him what those words mean.”
Glazier: “No, by putting words in his mouth.”
Popkin: “What shots were you referring to that Lionel didn’t fire?”
Pollard: “Shots made at a road sign from my car on the road from the gun shop, I believe, back to East Corinth.” 110 2
“Now, after you left the Sargent house the morning after the fire, where did you go from there?”
“I can’t remember.”
Popkin asks if he went “up to East Corinth and spend the night there that night?” “Probably.”
Popkin said this would be a good time to take a lunch break. 111
When Popkin resumed questioning Pollard he started with the drug robberies that Pollard was involved in.
“Mr. Pollard, you were, granted immunity, were you, from prosecution in the Charlie Dolan drug robbery cases against Lionel Cormier, Dick sergeant, and Mr. Smith?”
“"We've asked you to produce any documents which have to do with any grant of immunity which you may have. Do you or your attorney have any documents of that sort. "
"I have none, nor had he ever seen any."
Glazier: "I can't answer for him obviously If there was ever any written documentation I never received it."
"Other than giving information to the Maine State Police regarding the Charlie Dolan robberies and the fire in Lucerne as you've described for us, have you had a relationship with the Maine State Police to give them information about any other matters beside what we have been discussing here.
" Let me show you, ... Pollard Deposition Exhibit No. 6 (113) and do you recognize that?” 114
Glazier: “No, we haven’t started reading it yet. I’m a slow reader. You’ll have to forgive me.”
(After a time)
.“Is that a signed statement of yours which was given in 1985 on the 12th day of February to Detective Shuman and Trooper Graves of the Maine State Police?”
"Now let me start with a few questions regarding this. ... Was the second Charlie Dolan robbery discussed at the camp in Lucerne that week or a couple of days before Micheal Cochran died?”
"There was never any discussion of planning a drug rip-off at that camp?”
“Before lunch you told us that you did not rule out the possibility that someone might have been trying to kill you. “Why would someone have wanted to kill you?”
"I didn’t know."
“And you’re telling me here today that you would have no idea whatsoever why anybody then would have wanted to do you in?”
Glazier: “You’ve asked the question several times, and he’s answered several time. Would you stop badgering him, please. 118
“Now, before you were testifying about going to Mark Ashe’s house the next morning. I’m a little unclear. Was it broad daylight, the sun was up when you went to Ashe’s?”
“Yes, it was daylight at that point." 119
“... About what time was that? Can you tell me anything more?”
“It would be difficult to judge. I’d been outside for several hours.”
“Was it the first thing in the morning, or was it close to noon?”
“I would only be guessing.”
“Why were you staying out there in the woods?” 121
“Out of fear mostly.”
“Fear for your life?”
“I panicked and I wasn’t sure what to do.”
“But for some reason it had been my impression that when day broke you went and made these phone calls. Are you now telling me that you might have waited in the woods long after daybreak, even as far as the next noon, before you went and made this phone call?”
Glazier and Mr. Popkin clashed again.
Glazier: “Excuse me, he didn’t testify to that.” 121
“Well, I’m just asking him to clarify it.” 122
“Look, he said about eighteen time already about the sun being up and he didn’t know the time.”
“That’s right, but I was just - -“
“How many times do you have to ask him?”
“Well, Marvin - -“
“Marvin nothing. That’s about the eighteenth time. He said he doesn’t know the time and the sun was up. What else do you want from him.”
“Well, I want to know if it would be possible to locate that any more precisely than the fact that the sun was up. Can you tell me whether it was five o’clock in the afternoon as opposed to nine in the morning?
Glazier: "It’s February. The sun’s up at five o’clock in the afternoon in Maine in February.”
“What can you tell me about what time it was?”
Glazier: “He’s already been asked and answered that question, and I’m not going to tell him (122) to answer it anymore.” 122
“Well, in this statement on Page 3 you state you stayed there until after daylight when the fire was out and the trucks had gone, and you then state at the top of page 3, I then walked out to the road and up to Mark Ashe’s house. Now, I reading that got the impression that when the sun had come up and the fire was out you then, without too much delay, walked up the road and made these phone calls; is that correct?”
“I don’t remember how long it was after the sun came up that I went to the house.” 3
"And you made one phone call?"
" And that was to Lionel in East Corinth?"
"And what, to the best of your recollection did you tell him?"
He said he “I told him there had been a fire and that he needed him to come out and pick him up”.
" And did he tell you anything about Percy Sargent’s drug arrest at that time?
"t don't think so." 124
“From the morning of the fire right on through the next few months was there ever any speculation or talk among the people that you were associated with that Micheal Cochran might have been an informer for the police and might have been the one who set up Percy for the bust on the night of the 18th?”
“No, I have no memory of that.” 124 4
“Now, in this statement, I think we’re flipping ahead here, but I call your attention to page 4 sort of the second paragraph down where it says that Lionel, Dick, and I went out to the camp fire either the first or second day after it happened. Lionel and Dick pawed around in the rubble kicking things around. I don’t know for sure, but I think they were looking for the body. The whole place had burnt flat. Do you have any recollection of going back to that campsite?” 125 -126
“I have no clear recollection of going back there. 5
"Do you even recall seeing the charred remains of the camp at any time?
" Did you and Lionel tell Carla Phair (Lionel’s girlfriend) that you were working for a trucking company?" 6
"Tell me about that statement and when you told her that and why."
“Lionel didn’t want to talk to Carla about the events that had occurred in November and created this story that we were working, which would explain why we would be away and would also explain why he had money.”
Well, as I understand it , the Dolan robbery probably took three of four hours, the first one; is that right? ... So what being away was there to explain?”
“Being out at the camp or being with the Sargents.” 7
"And at some point on the 19th you spoke to the deputy sheriff and gave him the statement that we were talking about before lunch about the shooting at the sign, it that right?"
. When Pollard was in East Corinth on the 19th of February and the deputy sheriff came. 127
“Now, let me call your attention - - I had asked you before whether you had spoken to any other state police officers on that occasion.”
Glazier: “On what occasion?”
“The day that you gave the statement about the reckless conduct with the firearm on the 19th to Deputy Sheriff Ross. Now, just below what we were discussing on Page 4 there is a paragraph after a handwritten notation of I was scared of what might happen to me. It said the next morning a trooper came to the house looking for me. Lionel and Carla were there and I was in a back room. Lionel told the trooper that I had moved. When Lionel told me about the trooper looking for me, I got scared. Now, do you recall that event taking place?”
“You don’t recall a trooper coming there and becoming afraid about that?”
“No, I don’t recall.
“Okay. So when it says later a sheriff came to the house. I let him in to talk to him. What I’m interested in now is the next sentence. Lionel screamed and hollered at me for talking with the police. Do you recall Lionel screaming and hollering at you about that?” 128 - 129
“No, I can’t remember.”
" Do you remember hiding out in the woods behind his house at any point during that period of time, or at all?" 129
"Yes, I do remember going into the woods."
"Do you remember hiding in the woods with Percy Sargent?"
"I remember Percy being out there, but we were not together."
"Tell me, first of all, what you recall about hiding in the woods."
"I do remember going out during the day and just staying out there till the evening."
"And what was your purpose? Was it the police you were hiding from?"
"Yes, I believe so.
"Do you have any idea why Percy wanted to hid in the woods?
" The same reason." 130
“And what was the reason?”
“To hide in case the police came back.”
"And what the were the police interested in that you were hiding out about?"
""i am not certain other than the reckless charge."
“It had nothing to do with the fire?”
“I don’t know.”
"Percy wasn't involved with the reckless conduct, was he?"
"What's your understanding of why Percy was hiding out?"
“Because of his arrest the night or couple nights before.” 130 8
"He had been bailed..."
"I assume so."
"What was Lionel upset about -- Lionel was orchestrating getting you guys to hide in the woods, right? He was sending you both out there?"
"What was your understanding of why Lionel -- what he was worried about?”
“I don’t remember.”
“Now, this is the beginning of the trip to Rhode Island, isn’t it, at this point?”
"Now, where was Dick Sargent staying in Lewiston?" 132
"Some hotel off Route 1, I think."
"And you did ask him to stay there?"
"I didn't ask. Someone asked."
"Someone asked if you, Paul Pollard, could stay there?"
"I think the question was more Percy and I could stay there."
“Okay. So Lionel was trying to get both you and Percy out of town at that point from Bangor?”
"At that point Dick Sargent said no, something to that effect that things were too hot there and the manager at the hotel might ask questions."
"Yes, I do recall that."
“What was the discussion about in the car on the way down? What was your understanding of why you guys were leaving?”
“I don’t remember.”
“Well, it says here on page 4 towards the bottom that when you were down in Lewiston at this time I was scared. I knew that someone had committed a murder, and I didn’t know who, but they convinced me that it was Bubby Johnson. Was that your understanding of why you and Percy were taking to the road?”
“I can’t remember.” 133
"Now, it says that you called a girlfriend down in Rhode Island and drove down to ther place. Doses this refresh your memory that it was right after going to Lewiston that you went to Rhode Island?"
"...it was probably in that time frame."
"Who did you go to see in Rhode Island.
"Just an old friend." 134
"What's her name." 135
"Did you tell her why you had come and what was going on.?"
"No, I didn't."
“Now, on page 5 there’s reference to a call to your father Owen. It says I called Owen, my father, from Rhode Island and told him about the fire and that someone had died in it and that I was scared. Owen told me to come home and we would take care of it. Can you tell me what you told him? Do you remember that phone call?”
“I remember making the phone call.” 136
“Can you amplify anything upon what is in this statement?”
"And you can't really tell me anything more about that at this point."
"No, I don't remember much more other than his advise to come back" 137
"It was simply your father's advise, is your understanding, that you should come back and make a clean breast of things."
“And to how this contact with the authorities was going to be made?” 138
“My appearance in Waterville was coming up within a day or two with the phone call with Owen. So the first thing I need to do was to go to Waterville.”
"Just show up for the hearing on your forgery charge, correct?”
“And when you showed up there, you’ve testified that two detectives from the Maine State Police met you, right, at least Shuman met you?”
”I remember Shuman, yes.”
“And you hadn’t instructed an attorney or any other person, including your father, to contact anyone in the police to meet you in Waterville that day?”
“How were you going to make a clean breast of it with the authorities if they hadn’t just sort of turned up?” 139
“I can only guess.” 140
“Now, there was some mention earlier in this statement about a time when you went to the Bangor Police Station and got arrested on an old traffic ticket or something and I think we can find the place, or maybe, Leigh, you can find it in this statement, the reference was you were carrying some bags and you went to a restaurant where Carla Phair worked and left some bags there with Carla. Do you recall what that was about, why you were carrying bags and leaving them at a restaurant for Carla?’
“The police allowed me to go to the car and take out whatever I had in there, and there were just a couple of bags of belongings. They were my belongings that had been in the car, back seat or trunk or something.” 9
“So is it your testimony then that after you dropped the belongings off for Carla you then went back to the police station, or what is it that you then did?”
“I walked out of the police station and Lionel, who had brought me there, had vanished, so rather than walk around with the bags I went to where Carla worked and asked if I could just leave them behind the counter or somewhere in there and would pick them up later and then started to walk along the road back to East Corinth, and at some point later Lionel passed by and stopped and picked me up. 141 10
“Now, as you look at Page 3 of this statement, there’s some discussion there in the car at that time of Dick [Percy] and Lionel talking about why they hadn’t found the body yet. This would have been just one day after the fire, wouldn't it? Strike that. Let’s try to orient this conference. When do you believe this did take place?”
“I can’t recall exactly when.”
“Based on this statement, wouldn’t you say that it was after you had spent the morning hiding in the woods?” 141 11
“I don’t know.”
“You are clear that there was an incident where you took the bags and Lionel picked you up, but you can’t recall where it relates to these other things?”
“What was your reaction when Dick [Percy] and Lionel started telling you that Mike Cochran definitely hadn’t gotten out?”
“I don’t remember.” 142
"Do you have any understanding of what exactly Percy was out to do in terms of a drug deal the night of the fire. 143
“To sell drugs.”
"And where did you get the idea? Where did you get that understanding."
"From a discussion at the camp." 12
“What’s your understanding of why the reckless conduct charge was dismissed? How did that come about?”
“I don’t recall exactly.” 14
"Was there ever a point when you came near to striking some sort of deal about that and then it fell through and then later on you did manage to get it taken care of?"
“I don’t remember making any deals.” 143 13
"Did you feel at any point that you had more or less taken care of your status as a suspect in the Cochran death, that the police were no longer looking at you and you were pretty much free and clear on that?"
"Following the first polygraph test."
"Okay. Now, did you have any specific discussions with anyone in the police about that?"
"I don't remember everything, but I do remember being told that they believed I had told the truth while taking the polygraph.
"And was that Shuman who told you that?"
"I don't remember who."
" “After that first time in the jail on the an reckless conduct charge when you spoke on several occasions to Shuman, did you speak to him again about the Cochran arson homicide? I’m talking about back in 1981.” 144 -145
“No, I don’t believe so.”
“Did you tell Shuman about the Dolan robberies at any time in 1981?”
“No, I don’t believe so.” 145 14
“When did you first tell Shuman about the Dolan robbery?”
“Did you gain the impression that this was not a surprise to him to learn about the rip-offs of Charlie Dolan?”
“I can’t remember.” 148
“What I’m looking for here is not necessarily anything that’s consistent with what you said before but basically the best feel we can get for this very confusing train of events. We know for sure that for a couple of days after the robbery - - I mean, after the fire you were in the Bangor area. That's correct from everything you've said and there's really no doubt abut that, is there?" 149
“Now, at some point you go briefly to Rhode Island and come back. That’s after those first couple of days in the Bangor area, right?”
“That’s certainly after you have spoken to Deputy Sheriff Ross on the 19th, correct?” 150
“And it’s almost certainly after Percy has been bailed because there’s that incident when he’s out in the woods with you or your both in the woods, right?”
“Then you go to Rhode Island very briefly. You spend one day and you come back, correct?”
“Maybe two days.”
“Okay. So maybe two days in Rhode Island. And the next document we have in date is this document dated the 24th of February 1981, and that’s Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and this is related to a bench warrant on the forgery charge, correct?”
“So it’s your testimony that you didn’t go to Rhode Island until after the 24th?”
“So it would be your testimony that you then went to Rhode Island after the date of No.1 and then came back to Waterville for your court appearance and that was when Shuman came down and picked you up?’
“And on that date before you got up to the jail, he asked you nothing about the Cochran death and the camp in Lucerne?”
“When did you first start talking to the police about the camp in Lucerne, because the next day you give Shuman that statement which we have marked as Exhibit No. 3? March 3rd you gave him No.3. March 3rd you are arrested and don’t talk to him on the way up. ... So what happened, you all of a sudden got to Bangor and then they started to talk about Cochran?”
“That’s correct.” 151
“And did they broach that or did you volunteer it? After all, you had spoken to Owen already and had the intention to tell him.”
Glazier: “Wait a minute, I object to that question.”
“Well - -“
“Well nothing. I object to it.”
“I will withdraw it. Just tell me how it came about.”
“They asked me some questions, and I answered their questions.”
“You spent about six days in jail?”
“Were you in contact with Lionel and Percy after you made bail?” 152
“I saw Lionel that evening."
"Tell me what Lionel said to you and what you said to Lionel that evening."
" Lionel tried to convince me that he was the one who had helped me get out, and he also talked about the possibility of robbing someone who had a lot of jewelry. It didn't make a lot of sense. He was in a real agitated mood that evening. I don't remember that he tried to keep me in Bangor, so I decided to go to Bob Smith's house.” 153
“So you went directly to East Corinth when you got bailed out?”
“Was Lionel interested in what you had told the police or about what they had asked you about any of this when you got out of jail?”
”I believe he was.”
“And what did you tell him?”
“I can’t recall exactly.” 153
“Did you tell him that you had told the police about being at the Lucerne camp?”
“I can’t remember.”
"Was he interested in whether you had talked about the Dolan robberies?”
”I can’t remember.”
“You don’t recall whether you told him that you had spoken to the criminal investigation division about Micheal Cochran’s death?”
“No, I don’t remember.” 154
“Do you recall any conversation with Owen at that time as a follow-up to his advise to you to come back and come clean?”
“No, I don’t remember.”
“Do you recall that subject of you coming clean on the Cochran business was ever talked about again between you and Owen in that year, in 1981?”
“Not that I remember.”
“How long was it after you got out of jail that you participated in the second Charlie Dolan robbery?” 155
“I don’t recall the exact date, but ,it was in April.” 156 16
“My understanding is that at some point Lionel and Percy were at least talking about whether the body had been found and, you know, that Cochran hadn’t gotten out and all that sort of thing. Are you telling me that after you got out of jail there was never another conversation in which they were talking about this?
“Not that I remember.” 157
“Did you take you gun, your 357, down to Rhode Island with you?”
“I don’t remember.” 159
“Did you ever in that period of time take a bus? You know, did you take a bus back from Rhode Island? Is that how you got back?”
“Do you believe that somebody might have killed Cochran to shut him up?” 163
Glazier: “Objection. Speculation.”
"What do you think?"
"Objection. Speculation" How can he possibly have any idea."
Well, all I know is that this kind of thing on the record is often fruitless. If it was me and I was in a fire and I thought somebody had tried to kill me, I would probably have some idea, at least in my own mind, of what at least possibly, if not probably, had been behind it.”
“I have no idea.” 163
“Now, Did you have the 357 with you the whole time after you left the camp that night, or did you leave it someplace?” 164
”I don’t recall.”
”And you don’t recall whether or not you went back for it the next day?”
“I don’t remember.” (164)
"Was Karen Murray the only person that you stayed with in Rhode Island, or did you stay with someone else?”
“It was the only person.” 165
“What time did you arrive when you went down there?”
”Three or four in the morning.”
“When you arrived at four o’clock in the morning, was Karen Murray surprised that you would arrive at that hour?”
”She was expecting me.”
“From where did you make the call to Owen?”
“From Karen’s.” 166
“Somewhere in this statement I believe it states that you were afraid that you were going to take the rap for something that you hadn’t done. Okay. Well, actually I believe what Barbara (Paralegal) is reminding me of is she believes that you said that earlier today at some point. Were you, in fact, afraid that you were going to have to take the rap for something you hadn’t done?” (166)
They weren’t able to find in the statement where Pollard had said he was afraid he was going to take the rap for the murder.
Popkin said, “Let’s just drop it because it’s not the most important question I would have asked." 167 17
"And you are not going to tell me where your mother is?"
"Glazier: That's right, he's not."168
"Okay. We left the guns and dynamite in your apartment in Boston at a certain point ... What happened after that?"
"... I told Owen about them, and he suggested contacting Marvin and working out some way of getting rid of them."
"And what was worked out?"
"I took the dynamite and the guns out of Boston back to Maine and delivered them to Marvin." 168
"You personally drove them from Boston to Bangor?"
"I don't recall that I did. It may have been Owen. One of us."
"And did you hear anymore about that?"
“And what was your understanding of how that was going to be handled? Did you understand that there was some agreement that could be done with impunity or they could just be turned in?”
“I’m not sure I understand that.” 168
“At any rate, did you have any discussions with anyone in which it was indicated to you that it was okay to simply take them and drop them off one way or another at your attorney’s.”
“I don’t recall.”
“Now, after that you heard no more about it, after you got rid of them?”
“That’s right.” 169
“Okay. And you moved to Boston with the money from the second Dolan robbery?” “Yes.” 170
"What was the occasion of the last interview then with Lionel?"
“Early ’82 I had come to Maine to visit Owen. It was a holiday of some sort. I had decided to go over to see Bob Smith to say hello. I went there and Lionel was there. I had no idea he would be there. He was driving some big, new car and obviously had a lot of money, and while I was there he had told me that he had been stopped on some minor charge and that they had confiscated the gun, the Colt Python. He said since the gun was in my name that I should be able to go over there and demand it as my property. When I refused, he became really agitated, worse than I had seen him in a long time, and he threatened to kill me if I didn’t do as he asked. I left the house as quickly as I could. That’s the last time I had seen Lionel or Bob Smith.” 172
“What finally happened to the .357? Do you still have that?”
“No, I sold that back – I can’t remember exactly when.”
“Do you think Cormier is capable of killing you?”
“I don’t know if he could.”
“When did you become aware of Michael’s body actually being found?”
“I believe the first person to say that remains were found was Shuman.”
“When did you last see Detective Shuman?” 173
“At the trial of Lionel.”
“Have you talked to him since then?”
“I talked to him once after the trial. I had called to tell him that Mrs. Cochran had been calling me, and that was the last time I spoke with him.” 173
"Have you had any contacts with the Attorney General's Office?"