APRIL 8, 1986
Cormier didn’t know at that time that Percy was ready to turn him in for Mike's murder. Percy Sargent’s letter to me from Maine State Prison said Lionel Cormier and Paul Pollard were guilty of Mike’s murder. It was dated, April 8, 1986, the same day that Richard recorded this conversation with Cormier. Percy, Cormier and Pollard were all turning on one another at that time.

Cormier: You know about Paul and that whole thing. You know we’re not gonna get our trials separate. I went to a f****** motion hearing and it was denied. Because Mr. Cormier and Mr. Sargent have been involved in f****** s*** since 1973 and that we feel that these two people create the third personality. They think we’re a f****** psychological, f****** deviant. That’s a fact. They said that we have been in f****** — we have been in trouble together so much that it’s obvious to the court that we are a team. Secondly we are considered extremely dangerous criminals and that we should be f****** dealt with the full breath of the law. That’s word for word right there.  ... Anyways, they don’t want to f****** talk to me about this Paul caper

Richard: They don't.

Cormier: They think they got him as it is on their own, through his own admission.

Richard: Why, has he admitted setting fire?

Cormier: No, he hasn’t admitted setting the fire but he’s f****** bounced all around it, you know, the f****** little puke and he’s definitely gonna be at the trial. Yeah, f****** Bob Smith’s definitely gonna be at the trial to testify to everything that Paul said to him about you and Percy and everybody else. Can you believe that? ...I want to get out at any f****** expense. Not expense, any f****** anything. I’m talking about a moon shot.

Richard: You haven’t heard nothing about Paul implicating you?

Cormier: No, he hasn’t.

Richard: I heard something about it. That he’s implicating you into that murder, saying that you did it.

Cormier: Jesus Christ. Well Dick, what can I tell you? I wasn’t even f****** there. ...How come he’s the one that was there? How come all this s*** happened and I’m the one who f****** pulls him out and he’s the one who’s... That little mother f*****, I’m a kill him.

Richard: ...Well that’s what I hear, that Paul’s talking of murder, of you, saying that you did it. He said he called you up and you come down, did Cochran in and burned the place down. Then he’s saying that you planned the whole story and went back down with him and he went in and made that phony call there at noontime.

Cormier: I’ll tell you what, he better hope I get f****** double life cause I’ll live just to get this mother f*****. God, he’ll get me some ugly...

Richard: He’s saying that you took him out of state cause he was scared.

Cormier: Oh yeah, that’s a fact. Of course he was scared but that’s not the reason why he was flipping out. You saw him at your mother’s house ... He can implicate me till the f****** cows come home and it’ll never stick ...you know who I was going out with at the time? Carla Phair. You know Barry Shuman? He could take lessons from her.

Richard: What this is going to boil down to is his word against your word.

Cormier: No, I got witnesses, Dick ...the fire takes place at four o’clock.

Richard: No, no, no. It started at about three.

Cormier: Three o’clock, whatever.

Richard: Gonna try to get you on the murder...

Cormier: No, they don’t want to make a deal on the murder at all. I’ve been talking directly to the DA ... I told them, I’m gonna have to f****** subpoena Percy to make a statement before we go to court and I’m gonna have to f****** get you to come down too, to make a statement that we were at your mother’s house, you know.

Richard: Did he ask you anything about Paul?

Cormier: That’s all we talked about... and he says, ‘what about Dick Sargent?’ and I said, well, me and Paul went over to your mom’s place that same day.

Richard: But I didn’t call you, you just showed up.

Cormier: Yeah, you just showed up and what happened was -- what the f*** happened. Well, we were all there, you know, and what the f****’s the story here, you know? You know, no eye contact, I mean obviously we’re animals ...you know, and I’m telling him everybody knew that he was acting f****** super strange, you know, and he says, ‘will Dick Sargent swear to the fact that he was at his mother’s house that next day?’ and I said, you’re f****** right he will. You will won’t ya?

Richard: Oh yeah. You was there.   

Cormier: Yeah. I told them even your mother, you know. And what else did they say? Oh, yeah. Percy Sargent denied that we took him to Rhode Island. The District, my attorney’s looking up his old girlfriend and s*** to verify that he was there at the University of Rhode Island and hid out for f****** four or five days. Oh, this is totally new evidence to the f****** DA, He didn’t know all this happened. That Paul had left the state till I told him.

Richard: ...Is that right?

Cormier: Hear from Percy lately?   

Richard: No.   

Cormier: I might write him a letter tonight. That f****** a**hole.    ...they’re gonna call you up and s***. All right? That’s all I can tell you. I wanted to call and tell you so you don’t f****** hear about it and f****** flip out. All it is is gonna be to verify the fact he was there at your mother’s house the next day. That’s all it is and the information on him leaving the state and s***. ...Also I said, see like he took a polygraph test and said that he didn’t know that there was a body in the camp. Now I told him that he stated that they would find a body. Remember he said that at your mother’s house?   

Richard: Yeah.   

Cormier: And he says, ‘What? What was that?’ That’s the only thing that he jumped on. That he f****** said it at your mom’s house. ...I’m waiting for the f****** District Attorney if he can get hold of me this week. I guess he’s gonna bring the information he’s got to the Grand Jury.   

Richard: What for Paul?   

Cormier: Yeah. He’ll be either arrested this week or – I mean not this week but next week or not at all. ...All of it was new evidence. The part that really got them going was that he mentioned the fact that they would find a body in the f****** house, the camp before anybody else knew it. 

Richard: If Paul didn’t know there was a body in there how come he told us a couple hours later in the morning there, nine thirty. ...Before nine thirty cause it took me two hours. I left at seven. It probably took me two hours to get up there and I was there about fifteen minutes before you come.

Cormier: I got a verification already from the phone company that he made a call to me in the morning. ...Seven o’clock in the morning ... So, you know my story is totally viable.    

Richard: So you’re just going to wait and see what Paul’s gonna do.   

Cormier: Yeah, well, just waiting for Christopher Almy and what he’s gonna do. Paul, he’s got nothing to say about this now. If they jump on it he’s f****** dead meat. If they don’t, that’s it. ...From my testimony against Paul they’re gonna - everything that I’ve done since 1981 will be wiped out, meaning that second armed robbery. But I won’t be indicted for knowledge of murder before and after the fact, you know, getting rid of evidence, meaning taking Paul out of state, cause that’s a charge. I can be charged with that for f****** taking him out of state. 

Richard: What will they do, give you immunity for your testimony?   

Cormier: ...Right. But I need you to tell them the f******, just tell them the truth about when we were at your house, your mom’s house, alright? ...And I guess all we have to worry about is that first robbery and that will be it.

Richard: The first one? They ain’t gonna give you immunity for the first one?

Cormier: ...Cause other people are involved, Percy and you. He’s mad as s*** at you. ...not Almy but the f****** other dude. Attorney General [Thomas Goodwin]. Cause you embarrassed the f****** court by f****** not being guilty

Richard: I embarrassed him.   

Cormier: Made him look like a fool. He doesn’t want that to happen again. That’s why this whole thing is being handled in kid gloves.

Richard: How do they know Paul’s telling the truth?

Cormier: They don’t. See, he took a polygraph test but he’s borderline through the whole thing. ...he’s one of those people that can take a polygraph test and lie and still f****** get away with it.

Richard: ...So you’re gonna have to testify against Paul.

Cormier: Oh, in a heartbeat. ...I’ll rat him out to the f****** tenth degree.

Richard: You do want that murder solved awful bad don’t you? ...Did he ask you if you knew for a fact that Paul set that fire?"

Cormier: Yeah, he asked me that. I said he f****** hid all the way around it. I said he did everything but admit it outright. He says, ‘well, I need more than that’. I says, ‘well hey, I’ve been convicted on less evidence than that, dude.’ He says, 'well this is a God damn murder trial. We just can’t be sending anybody to f****** prison.’ I say, ‘well you want to send me to f****** jail. What the f***? I’m not just anybody am I? Am I a total dreg of society?’ He didn’t say nothing but obviously I am. The lowest of the low, the dirt of the dirt.

Richard: The prosecutor might be playing cat and mouse with you Lionel.

Cormier: I know he might be.

Richard: Think that you were involved in it and that you’re putting it onto Paul to help you own a** out.

Cormier: Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m doing it for.

Richard: Well, stop and think. Paul would know what you’d do to him if you did ten years and you’d be out in seven or eight years and you’d be out to kill him. He knows it. He knows what you’re like, right?

Cormier: I’d go, we’d have dinner or something together or something, yeah. (snickers)

Richard: The thing that Paul is saying though, is that you come out... He called you, right.

Cormier: It’s not on my f****** bill. ... but see they got all this evidence from f****** the Cochran case. They still got it. You know if my phone number was f****** rang at that f****** late at night you know they would have came over and arrested me about it. Dick, give me a break. ...There’s f****** like ten pages of f****** phone numbers on that f****** Cochran, on that Dupray’s phone.

Richard: ... Well, we tried to get some phone calls from the phone company back five years, you know, when the fire took place. Cause I was supposed to call Bubba Johnson or somebody and they didn’t have no records.

Cormier: Yeah, see the reason they had Dupray’s number is cause it was all under surveillance.