Cormier: You know about Paul
and that whole thing. You know we’re not gonna get our trials separate. I went to a f****** motion hearing and it was denied.
Because Mr. Cormier and Mr.
Sargent have been involved in f****** s***
since 1973 and that we feel that these two people create the third
personality. They think we’re a f****** psychological, f****** deviant.
That’s a fact. They said that we have been in f****** — we have been in
trouble together so much that it’s obvious to the court that we are a
team. Secondly we are considered extremely dangerous criminals
and that we should be f****** dealt with the full breath of the law.
That’s word for word right there. ...
Anyways, they don’t want to f****** talk to me
about this Paul caper [Mike's murder].
Cormier's phone bill shows that
Cornier called Richard 8:13 AM (four hours after Pollard was seen fleeing the murder scene) on the morning
Cormier, Pollard and Percy Sargent killed Mike and they talked until 8:44 a.m., thirty-one minutes. This was before
Pollard staged his phone call to Cormier from the John Clark residence.
Richard: They don’t?
They think they got him as it is on their
own, through his own admission.
Richard: Why, has he admitted setting fire?
Cormier: No, he hasn’t admitted setting the fire but he’s
f****** bounced all around it, you know, the f****** little puke and
he’s definitely gonna be at the trial. Yeah, f******
Bob Smith’s definitely gonna be at the trial to testify to everything that
to him about you and Percy and everybody else. Can you believe that?
...I want to get out at any f****** expense. Not expense, any f******
anything. I’m talking about a moon shot.
Richard: You haven’t heard nothing about
Cormier: No, he hasn’t.
Richard: I heard something about it. That
he’s implicating you into that murder, saying
that you did it.
Cormier: Jesus Christ. Well
Dick, what can I tell you? I wasn’t even f******
there. ...How come he’s the one that was there? How come all this s***
happened and I’m the one who f****** pulls him out [Cormier was waiting
on the highway to pick Pollard up when he fled into the woods away
from the murder scene.] and he’s the one
who’s... That little mother f*****,
I’m gonna kill him.
Richard: ...Well that’s what I hear, that Paul’s talking of murder, of you,
saying that you did it. He said he called you up and you come down, did
Cochran in and burned the place down. Then he’s saying that you planned
the whole story and went back down with him and
he went in and made that
phony call there at noontime.
Cormier: I’ll tell you what, he better hope I get f******
double life cause I’ll live just to get this mother f*****.
God, he’ll get me some ugly...
Richard: He’s saying that you took him out of state
cause he was scared.
Cormier: Oh yeah, that’s a fact. Of course he was scared but that’s not the
reason why he was flipping out.
You saw him at your mother’s house ...
He can implicate me till the f****** cows come home and it’ll never
stick ...you know who I was going out with at the time?
know Barry Shuman? He could take lessons from her.
Richard: What this is going to boil down to is his
word against your word.
Cormier: No, I got witnesses,
Dick ...the fire takes
place at four o’clock.
Richard: No, no, no. It started at about three.
Cormier: Three o’clock, whatever.
Gonna try to get you on the murder...
Cormier: No, they don’t want to make a deal on the murder at all.
talking directly to the DA ... I told them,
I’m gonna have to f******
subpoena Percy to make a statement before we go to court and I’m gonna
have to f****** get you to come down too, to make a statement that we
were at your mother’s house, you know.
Richard: Did he ask you anything about
Cormier: That’s all we talked about... and he says, ‘what
about Dick Sargent?’ and
I said, well, me and
Paul went over to your mom’s place that same day.
Richard: But I didn’t call you, you just showed up.
Cormier: Yeah, you just showed up and what happened was -- what the f***
happened. Well, we were all there, you know, and what the f****’s the
story here, you know? You know, no eye contact,
I mean obviously we’re
animals ...you know, and I’m telling him everybody knew that he
was acting f****** super strange, you know, and he says, ‘will Dick
Sargent swear to the fact that he was at his mother’s house that next
day?’ and I said, you’re f****** right he will. You will won’t ya?
In Pollard’s 2-12-85 statement
he told Shuman that he, Cormier and Percy Sargent drove to the cottage and on the way
down they were talking about “why the cops hadn’t found the body yet.”
Either the first or second day after the murder they went to the scene
and “pawed around in the rubble kicking things around” looking for the
body. Shuman ignored this information.
Richard: Oh yeah. You was there.
Cormier: Yeah. I told them even your mother, you know. And what
else did they say? Oh, yeah.
Percy Sargent denied that we took him to
Rhode Island. The District, my attorney’s looking up his old girlfriend
Caron Murray who was never questioned] and s*** to verify that he was there at the University of Rhode Island
and hid out for f****** four or five days. Oh, this is totally new
evidence to the f****** DA, Dick. He didn’t know all this happened.
Paul had left the state till I told him.
Richard: ...Is that right?
Cormier: Hear from Percy lately?
Cormier: I might write him a letter tonight. That
Cormier didn’t know at that time that Percy was ready to
turn him in for Mike's murder. Percy Sargent’s letter to me from Maine State Prison said Lionel Cormier and Paul Pollard were
guilty of Mike’s murder. It was dated, April 8, 1986, the same day that Richard recorded this conversation with
Cormier. Percy, Cormier and Pollard were all turning on each other at that time.
Cormier: ...they’re gonna call you up and s***. All right?
That’s all I can tell you. I wanted to call and tell you so you don’t
f****** hear about it and f****** flip out. All it is is gonna be to verify the fact he was
there at your mother’s house the next day [four hours after Mike's
murder]. That’s all it is and the
information on him leaving the state and s***. ...Also I said, see like
he took a polygraph test and said that he didn’t know that there was a
body in the camp. Now I told him that he stated that they would find a
body. Remember he said that at your mother’s house?
Cormier: And he says, ‘What? What was that?’ That’s the only thing that he
jumped on. That he f****** said it at your mom’s house. ...I’m waiting
for the f****** District Attorney if he can get hold of me this week. I
guess he’s gonna bring the information he’s got to the Grand Jury.
Richard: What for Paul?
Cormier: Yeah. He’ll be either arrested this week or – I mean not this week
but next week or not at all. ...All of it was new evidence.
that really got them going was that he mentioned the fact that they
would find a body in the f****** house, the camp
before anybody else knew it.
If Paul didn’t know there was a body in there how come
he told us a couple hours later in the morning there, nine thirty.
...Before nine thirty cause it took me two hours. I left at
seven. It probably took me two hours to get up there and I was there
about fifteen minutes before you come.
Cormier is wrong. Cormier's phone bill shows that he received a collect call from Pollard at 8:44
a.m., immediately after ending his call with Richard Sargent. I don’t think it’s possible that both men forgot the thirty-one minute phone
call they had on the morning of Mike’s murder.
Cormier: I got a verification already from the phone
company that he made a call to me in the morning. ...Seven
o’clock in the morning ... So, you know my story is totally
Richard: So you’re just going to wait and see what Paul’s
This is what Percy wrote me
in April of 1986: “I don’t
know what that D.A. thinks up there but they got two people up there
that’s saying, each one of them that they’re trying to make a deal with
the District Attorney about who’s gonna testify against who up there ...
and this Paul Pollard is the guy that was at the camp that night. And
his brother came to pick him up after the fire was set that night. And
so his brother, the boy that picked him up that night is trying to make
the deal with the District Attorney and saying that his – this is his
half brother, that has set that fire that night.”
Cormier: Yeah, well, just waiting for
and what he’s gonna do.
Paul, he’s got nothing to say about this now. If they jump on it he’s
f****** dead meat. If they don’t, that’s it. ...From my testimony
they’re gonna - everything that I’ve done since 1981 will
be wiped out, meaning that second armed robbery.
But I won’t be indicted
for knowledge of murder before and after the fact, you know, getting rid
of evidence, meaning taking Paul out of state, cause that’s a charge. I
can be charged with that for f****** taking him out of state.
Richard: What will they do, give you immunity for
Cormier: ...Right. But I need you to tell them the f******,
just tell them the
truth about when we were at your house, your mom’s house, alright?
...And I guess all we have to worry about is that first robbery and that
will be it.
Richard: The first one? They ain’t gonna give you
immunity for the first one?
Cormier: ...Cause other people are involved,
Percy and you.
He’s mad as s***
at you. ...not Almy but the f****** other dude. Attorney General [Thomas
Goodwin]. Cause you embarrassed the f****** court by f****** not being
guilty [When the state was forced to dismiss arson/murder charges
against Richard Sargent.]
Richard: I embarrassed him.
Cormier: Made him look like a fool. He doesn’t want that to
happen again. That’s why this whole thing is being handled in kid
Richard: How do they know
Paul’s telling the truth?
Cormier: They don’t.
See, he took a polygraph test but he’s borderline
through the whole thing. ...he’s one of those people that can take a
polygraph test and lie and still f****** get away with it.
Richard: ...So you’re gonna have to testify against
Cormier: Oh, in a heartbeat. ...I’ll rat him out to
the f****** tenth degree.
Richard: You do want that murder solved awful bad don’t you? ...Did
he ask you if you knew for a fact that Paul set that fire?"
Cormier: Yeah, he asked me that. I said he f****** hid all the way around it.
I said he did everything but admit it outright. He says, ‘well, I need
more than that’. I says, ‘well hey, I’ve been convicted on less evidence
than that, dude.’ He says, 'well this is a God damn
murder trial. We
just can’t be sending anybody to f****** prison.’ I say, ‘well you want
to send me to f****** jail. What the f***? I’m not just anybody am I?
I a total dreg of society?’ He didn’t say nothing but obviously I am.
The lowest of the low, the dirt of the dirt.
Richard: The prosecutor might be playing cat and
mouse with you Lionel.
Cormier: I know he might be.
Richard: Think that you were involved in it and that you’re putting it onto
Paul to help you own a** out.
Cormier: Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m doing it for.
Richard: Well, stop and think. Paul would know what you’d
do to him if you did ten years and you’d be out in seven or eight years
and you’d be out to kill him. He knows it. He knows what you’re like,
Cormier: I’d go, we’d have dinner or something together or something, yeah.
Richard: The thing that
is saying though, is that you
come out... He called you, right
Cormier: It’s not on my f****** bill. ...
but see they got
all this evidence from f****** the Cochran case. They still got it. You
know if my phone number was f****** rang at that f****** late at night
you know they would have came over and arrested me about it.
me a break. ...There’s f****** like ten pages of f****** phone numbers
on that f****** Cochran, on that Dupray’s phone.
Richard: ...Well, we tried to get some phone calls
from the phone company back five years, you know, when the fire took
place. Cause I was supposed to call Bubba Johnson or somebody and they
didn’t have no records.
Cormier: Yeah, see the reason they had Dupray’s number is
cause it was all under surveillance.