JUNE 1986
Cormier: Well, I don’t think you are going to get convicted.

Richard: That goddamned Paul, I wonder where he is. He’s still in Augusta, huh?

Cormier: No. I don’t know where to f****** he’s at, Connecticut or someplace.

Richard: You think they might have second thoughts on that murder?

Cormier: Oh, I know they do. Yeah, they think he’s implicated somewhat more than he is saying. I am going to get right on the stand and tell them he shot him and set the place on fire. I am f****** serious, Dick, this little piece of s*** thinks he’s going to get out of this. (Laughs) That’s what he thinks.

Richard: You know something I don’t.

Cormier: I just know that piece of s***, he’s going to jail with us. If anybody’s going to jail, he’s going to go down with more time than any of us. That’s a fact.

Richard: Well, I found out something too. Paul said he was sleeping in the back room. That wasn’t Paul’s room. He wasn’t sleeping in that room.  He was sleeping on the couch in the living room.

Cormier: That’s where the fire took place. So, how did someone start a fire and still be sleeping?

Richard: He said he was sleeping on a cot in the back room. Percy said there was no cot in the back room. He’s lying.

Cormier: Of course, he lied through the whole thing. When they questioned him about the fire, they asked him one question. Did you set the fire, and he said no.

Richard: Well, the fire started inside. Yeah, that place was all open, that fire must have exploded before anything else. You know something might have been – gas, you know.

Cormier: Yeah. Gas and kerosene. Yeah, I don’t know what Fat Boy [Percy Sargent] had the kerosene for, but he got the -- it’s white gas, is what it was. It’s for cooking, you know. ...That f****** boot s***, is a bunch of s***.

Richard: Yeah.

Cormier: And what’s his face there, not [Attorney General] Tierney, Dick, whatever his name is, the guy who prosecuted you.”

Richard: Oh, [Assistant Attorney General] Goodwin.

Cormier: He’s sick about it.

Richard: Why?

Cormier: Because he did some lying. He never lost his shoes. ...I am going to set them all straight on the whole crime. Oh, I am going to do the whole thing, with the clothes and the shoes and the whole trip.

Richard: Yeah, going to nail him.

Cormier: F****** right, I am going to nail that little piece of s***.

Richard: He got you to pick him up.

Cormier: Right, and that way he implicated me in the f****** murder. ...he thinks he’s out of the woods. Ha, ha, ha. He’s going to s*** when he comes to court, they arrest him on the spot. Actually I want them to indict at the Grand Jury.

Richard: Him and Cochran must have got in a hell of a fight that night.

Cormier: Shot him in the head, then burned the place down.

Richard: Think he really shot him or what?”

Cormier: Of course he shot him.

Richard: Never said nothing about shooting, though.

Cormier: Yeah, but I know he did. He’s too much of a wimp to do it on his own, like that –- he’d have to -- waste. Fatso, Percy got arrested at one o’clock in the morning.

Richard: How long do you think it took to burn the whole place?

Cormier: The guy said it took four hours. Oh, the f****** place was doused right down, he said. Inside and out.

Richard: ...Ain’t that something. How would Paul ever escape that fire if he was on the couch. That would be real hard wouldn’t it?

Cormier: Impossible. He must think everybody’s stupid.

Richard: He heard that Percy got busted...

Cormier: ...He figured Cochran set him up, called Cochran down [Micheal was sleeping in the loft], he says, hey, they got busted and then the conversation, who knows what the conversation was, right. And Cochran might have said, ‘you punk, you know, calling me a rat’ pushed Paul down. Paul pulled out that bonker and just let it eat.

Richard: So, he poured inside, then outside?

Cormier: I guess he probably wanted to make it look like it was done from the outside. So he did the outside, but doused the inside first.

Richard: Yea, the walls did fall out?

Cormier: No, the windows blew out.

Richard: Blew out?

Cormier: But the building collapsed.

Richard: So. Paul never said much that morning you picked him up, huh?

Cormier: You saw him he didn’t say nothing.  He didn’t smell like gasoline, did he?

Richard: No, he didn’t, he looked pretty fresh.

Cormier: Yea, just got out of the shower.

 Richard: But white, shiny, and white. ...Wonder why [they] would ever believe that story come out of his mouth.

Cormier: He didn’t give them a story, Dick, he didn’t give them a story.

Richard: Yea, he told them that -- I read it. The statement he, that he gave them, he ran out ...he was sleeping in the back room, right, sleeping there on a cot in the back room, and in a sleeping bag, right? Which wasn’t there. And that was Percy’s room, the only thing was in there was a bed and a nightstand that was it. No furniture, and he said he was sleeping back there on a cot, and he woke up and though he heard something. Then he went back to sleep and didn’t know how long he slept for, then he woke up again, knew the lights went out and he knew the place was on fire. Then he ran out the back door.

Cormier: That’s a good eight to ten feet drop.

Richard: He ran around front. Seen the place was on fire, the trees was on fire. Yeah, then, he ran back inside again and grabbed his shirt, pants, and socks, dropped one boot on his way out, the heat was too intense, so, he couldn’t get back in, the place was going up. That’s amazing. But he runs back in and gets dressed. Then runs out.

Cormier: There’s no way he could climb up that back door. No way. That f******, who f****** interrogated him? Who’s the cop who interrogated, Dick?

Richard: Shuman.

Cormier: Shuman, what a f****** fool. He couldn't catch the clap in a whorehouse. Can you believe that f****** fool? Then he comes up and tells me I am going to get indicted for it.

Richard: Shuman tells you you’re going to get indicted. Cormier: He says, ‘hey, I just got a phone call this morning from somebody in Winterport saying you’re the one started the fire. I had to fight myself to keep from breaking down laughing. I told my lawyer, I say, ‘I don’t want to talk to Shuman. I don’t even want him in the room when I make the statement.’ She says, ‘why?’ I say, ‘because he’s a fool.’ I says, ‘he had the murderer and let him go. What to f*** I want to talk to him and have him implicate me in this f****** crime. No way. I’ll talk to the A.G. and that’s all.’

Richard: Once they get Paul, you think, it’s going to incriminate you?

Cormier: ...Well, his credibility will be totally gone, Dick. I got him implicated in five robberies, this arson/murder.

Richard: If they already know that he did the murder and still willing to use him, that’s pretty bad, ain’t it

Cormier: We’re f****** -- don’t say that, Dick, all right. Because if that happens there is nothing we can do to get out of this. We’re f*****.

Richard: They going to believe a liar and a murderer.

Cormier: Dick, don’t even think that because if that happens we’re f******. We’re going to do some f****** serious time here.

Richard: What does your lawyer say about keeping all of this out of the paper?

Cormier: Oh, she thinks the reason they are doing that is because they f****** it up with you in the paper. And they don’t want that kind of pressure to f*** up this case.

Richard: Denying the press coverage on this or what?

Cormier: Exactly.

Richard: He got immunity on the robberies.

Cormier: That’s all he’s got. Nobody said nothing about this murder.

Richard: You think they would have learned a lesson from the red head [Sharon Sargent, Richard's sister-in-law], not to take people that ain’t credible and use them for a witness.

Cormier: Did you know we weren’t even in the papers for indictments?

Richard: No, ain’t that something. Huh? I hate the thought of the idea of a kangaroo court. Let’s sneak these guys in to court and let not anybody know about it and give them twenty-three years and send them away.

Cormier: She told me she says, ‘when you’re in the court room I don’t want you making no mean face at anybody.’ I says, ‘why?’ She says, ‘well, you will be intimidating the Jury.’ I says, ‘the Jury I could give a f*** about the Jury.’ I says, ‘the people on the stand.’ I says, ‘how about if I just break a bunch of pencils.’ She says, ‘no, you can’t do nothing like that.’ I says, ‘well, what exactly is proper court room etiquette?’ She says, ‘the best thing to do is just sit there and grin, just be emotionless.’ I said, ‘God, I am going to have all I can do just from strangling this ... I don’t understand this.’ She says, ‘Lionel, I know this is probably going to be the hardest thing for you ever to do, but this is going to be a hell of a trial.’ Her exact words, ‘A hell of a trial.’ She told me she’s going to have a good time. Charlie Dolan doesn’t want to be implicated in no tax fraud.

Richard: Tax evasion.

Cormier: Which carries a twenty-year sentence and fifty thousand dollar fine. Now what do you think of that?

Richard: Old Paul’s just hanging in the wind.

Cormier: Somebody over there’s got a dull knife fraying the s*** out of him. He’s a total piece of ... Remember, I told you a long time ago, when I kicked him out of the car. I should have run that mother f***** over.

Richard: Yeah, you should have.

Cormier: I should have cleaned that mother f***** up. I would have eliminated all this s*** and they would have only got me for vehicle homicide. Five years.

Richard: I can’t believe he did this to his own brother.

Cormier: I can’t either, you know, he’s scared s****** of me. Fight to the death, Madison Square Garden, Fourth of July. Be there.

Richard: Who is it, in the Bible, two brothers there? Cain and Abel isn’t it?

Cormier: Yeah, well, it happens to the best of families, I guess.